Interview

Highlights:
"As a media artists, my computer is so important to me, it's like my tool, it's like my whole world and I feel very attached to what it would it gives me as an artistic tool and so uh, but at the same time, I think the hate side of the relationship really stems from my relationship to social media, specifically my relationship with my devices which are kind of like the the shells to access these other these other pieces, the software that lives on them and then there's the different tools that I have installed on the devices and then there's the internet which they give me access to. And so I feel like like my devices really do feel like portals to the world that I work in and the world that I make art about art on so they're really important to me and I spend a lot of time with them and I really I really feel like they're almost extensions of myself in some ways."

"there's also this experience when I often first like, unlock my computer in the morning, all of the windows I had open yesterday start coming at me really quickly. So it's like rewinding through time and remembering like, oh, yeah, I was reading that article. And I was trying to like, edit this video. And I was also working on the code for this new project. "

"I usually tell people, I'm an artist, programmer, and dancer.""

"There's this essay called athletic aesthetics. And it's all about, like, artists now are being conditioned to like, look like athletes like, like, keep up this, like really intense pace of posting things."

"I think time you spend letting yourself go down rabbit holes on the internet. That time is so important and so generative for me, and arena is a big part of that for me, and also spending time surfing. When I think about links specifically, I think about websites that exist outside of social media, because so much of what these platforms are incurred or encouraged to do is keep you inside of the platform."

"I allow myself to kind of sit down, start somewhere and then end up somewhere completely different and being able to trace back the process of doing that."

"Yeah, and so links links to me feel like something that are very native to the early web. And over the past couple of years of people using social media more and more, it's been strange to see them (links) become like less privileged as an aspect of the internet, because now it's all about profiles and feeds versus remembering individual links. But, I really love that links act as their own kind of address, like URLs act as their own address to your specific place on the internet. That’s what I love about my website it makes me feel like I have the power over my address."

So, this is also just, like, kind of me being curious slash, like, class question. But like, so when you were at Google, like, in the beginning, were you doing like, creative? Like, the Creative Lab thing that you were talking about? Or were you doing like, more like backend stuff? Or, like, how did it go from that to like, the creative Google part to like now that I guess?

Yeah. Um, so I, the the longer story is I started studying computer science at Pomona, and I thought I would be a software engineer. Because that's what everyone else was doing. After I get it. Um, yeah, I want to hear more about that. But anyway, so after my first year, I, my uncle knew some people ITP in New York, which is the interactive communications program and I was elected to Lauren McCarthy, who is an artist who works with technology at the time, she was working on creating P5 JS, which is a JavaScript version of the processing library that was created by Ben Frey in 2001. And so that like opened my whole world because I met Lauren at this conference, I went to in college. This was after my first year and I feel really lucky that it happened. Because it I just had never seen people making artwork with code before. And I just changed my idea of what was possible. And I always really loved coding. I was never an artsy kid, like I was like I really like math. I didn't dance. But I was not into drawing and painting like I was, I don't know, I just never thought it was like in the cards for me. But then I realized - oh shit, actually, I need to do this.
So I realized that code as a medium would be my gateway. And so yeah, so but I still wasn't sure. I still didn't think I would be an artist at that point. And so I applied for a software engineering internship at Google from after my sophomore year, and I got it. And I interned in Mountain View, and at their headquarters, and I was on it. And you fill out a form where you're like, what kind of team would you want, and I was like, I would love to do something art related and creative. I got placed With a team that did interactive installations in the Google offices, which was cool, and so I worked with them. But then at the time, I had discovered the Google Creative Labs work online. And I really loved it. And was really excited about what they were doing. They were doing a lot of like in browser experiments, like Chrome. And I've always gravitated toward that. So I could like internally, like search for everybody who worked there while I was a Google intern. So I just searched everyone. Yeah, the technology is there. And I emailed everyone that I find, and one guy responded to me. He was like, sure, like, we can get lunch or whatever. When I was in New York, so I met with him. Yeah, we got lunch. Everyone else there. And then I got an internship with them the next summer, and then I worked there after school. So that was the that was the longer trajectory. But that's why I always tell people now like just email, shoot your shot? Yeah. Um, yeah, so and then working at the Creative Lab, I was doing a lot of mostly web based experiments that use different kinds of Google technology. And it's not like you work on Gmail, or search or YouTube, like a product. It's technically under marketing. And so you work on like, one project for six months, maybe. And then you do something completely different, which I liked. So it was it was really great in a lot of ways. My first year I was doing a program they have called the fiver program. But usually it's like, they bring in five young people in their career. My year, they're only three and you like work there for a year almost. But fiver. Yeah, five. And I really enjoyed that. And then I worked full time after that. So my first year was not full time.

What would you say to a young artist wondering whether to get social media or not?

I just think it's really hard. Because part of me wants to say like, you should feel zero pressure to have social media, but at the same time, it can be a tool. There's this essay called athletic aesthetics. And it's all about, like, artists now are being conditioned to like, look like athletes like, like, keep up this, like really intense pace of posting things. And trends. Yeah, whatever. And it's so exhausting. And I feel the pressure as an artist, especially an artist who works on the internet and makes work. And I have a lot of guilt about posting on social media, because I was really hyper aware of that, like, performativity that I felt in every like, in my life. I was like, Oh, who do I think I am? Like, seeing this picture like I'm being so I'm just trying to get people to think I'm like, XYZ, you know, and I was like, really judgmental of myself with it. But I didn't have I don't believe there's a thing that there's like any such thing as authenticity on the internet. And that helped me separate the way I was posting. From my my actual idea of who I am. For me posting on social media, like, people I don't know who to call or me. Not like, I'm not like communicating with my closest friends or whatever. And so when I think of it in like more of an artistic sense, like a performance of an identity, that's like I am a human being. Yeah, that's how I do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think it goes back to like growing up doing dance, so much. Being on stage and just being conditioned to learn how to perform in a specific way. I think a lot about that idea of how you sort of cultivate an identity online as if it's some kind of like state and so I really see it as a place where like, everyone's just sort of performing their like idealized internet version of meaningful stuff, but it's not authentic and the way people like to try and make it out to be isn't true. I think also, as an artist, you have the opportunity to shape your, the way that you want to use social media. You have this position where so many people go on Instagram, when they're so young, and like, have this like, years long history of profile or whatever, and have this like, sort of learned comfort with it, that maybe, maybe you don't feel and I don't know, I think that's really special. And I don't think you should feel pressured to suddenly jump into something when you feel are like really important. And also really interesting to hear about from, like gears, because a lot of people don't have that perspective. So I don't know, there's also like, also, like a lot of artists that do work on social media, and there is also like, all these kind of like, ways of using just like normal Instagram or any social media platform. Cool. And so I yeah, I think it's cool to think about like, Okay, if you if you can feel that you don't feel comfortable with that. Like, what, what, what does using Instagram look like for you? If you want to even use it? Yeah, in a way that is comfortable, like defining that boundary for yourself? Because it's great. Yeah, I feel like you, like assimilate to the norms, but I think it's cool to like, break through your own limitations. Especially within something. And I mean, I've seen you know, some people some people you like posts all the time, like random photos throughout the day, you know, yeah. Diary flow that's also feels different, you know, people are like, yeah, only post their artwork and some people post their artwork plus their life some people like different people, you know, I don't know it's just there's so many ways to do it. So yeah.

Okay, last question. So I guess just like to tie it off, like, links? That's the question.

Okay, a lot of thoughts. I think time you spend letting yourself go down rabbit holes on the internet. That time is so important and so generative for me, and arena is a big part of that for me, and also spending time surfing. When I think about links specifically, I think about websites that exist outside of social media, because so much of what these platforms are incurred or encouraged to do is keep you inside of the platform. For example, on Instagram, if you click on a link, it'll open up a link like still inside of Instagram and won't actually take you to someone new like, or whatever. But what I love about actually going online and going on people's personal websites going on arena, it allows me to travel, like, through the internet in a way that's taking me from, like, one person's personal website to an article to a related article to, and you're just able to sort of collect ideas and information on your journey, and all these different links. Um, and so I really appreciate the time, I allow myself to kind of sit down, start somewhere and then end up somewhere completely different and being able to trace back the process of doing that.
Yeah, and so links links to me feel like something that are very native to the early web. And over the past couple of years of people using social media and more and more, it's been strange to see them become like less privileged as a as an aspect of the internet, because now it's all about profiles and feeds versus remembering. So, but I really love that links act as their own kind of address, like URLs, actors, their own address your specific place on the internet, and what I love about my website, it makes me feel like I have the power to my own user. Yeah, address. Um, and it's, there's, there's like the amount of freedom I have writing HTML, JavaScript, CSS, to then just be able to put something up at that address, and then not only put it up, but share it so easily with people is really special to me. Yeah. They don't have to have like a stupid account, because that's for me.
Yeah, they're just trying to trap everybody inside of these networks. And that's what I love about links is that they're easy to share. It's not like stuff that runs in the browser. It's not like you need to download an application or anything else to view it like on any device you're on. There's there's the browser built in as a way for viewing the what lives at that link. So it's a very powerful way to share, basically, whatever you want.
I love that when you when you visit a website that runs live in the browser. So in all the work I do especially generative work, it's really important to me that the code, like when someone's viewing it, it's not a screenshot of it. But you're running in your browser. Yeah. I love that. Like making browser based work that lives out a specific link gives you the chance to do that.
I really like I really appreciate laurels work, because she's one of the people who, yeah, there's certain artists I gravitate toward, because they work with technology, or because they deal with identity and femininity. But laurels work really stands out as someone who's thinking about working on the internet and making websites that I really appreciate. And there's not as many artists who I see like, even if they do generative work or like work with technology, like she really specifically focuses on the web.